[19:00] <photomatt> howdy folks
[19:00] <skippy> aloha
[19:00] <stevecooley> Hi
[19:00] <photomatt> waiting for the codex to load with the agenda
[19:00] <mahangu> hey photomatt
[19:00] <photomatt> on a related note, the codex will be down for about 30 minutes tonight
[19:00] <io_error> error_bot: time
[19:00] <error_bot> io_error: 10:00 PM, January 04, 2006
[19:00] <photomatt> the yahoo folks are moving it to a different cluster so it'll be faster
[19:00] <mahangu> mm yahoo hosting
[19:01] <io_error> photomatt: will it stay online after this?
[19:01] <mahangu> :)
[19:01] <io_error> it seems to go down more than wikipedia, and that's a LOT
[19:01] <photomatt> io_error, no the plan is for random downtime every hour or so to keep people guessing
[19:01] <shep> photomatt: sweeeet
[19:01] <photomatt> we don't want newbies to rely on documentation so much, they never learn anything
[19:01] * ringmaster bangs on the reload button to keep everyone else from seeing IRC_Meetups before he does.
[19:01] <mahangu> photomatt, great plan :)
[19:02] <mumbles> hehe
[19:02] <photomatt> wow, it's really not loading
[19:02] <io_error> photomatt: see?
[19:02] <skippy> hooray for Yahoo
[19:02] <photomatt> how timely
[19:02] <io_error> Yeehaw!
[19:02] * ringmaster 's sinister plan succeeds.
[19:02] <skeltoac> Chaos ensued.
[19:02] <photomatt> ringmaster wins, meeting ajourned
[19:02] <mahangu> guys, im kinda pushed here finiship up this damn paper, anyone got the time to help Fink over in #wordpress? i started off with him, but realized i have class in 6 hours
[19:03] <ringmaster> Woo hoo!
[19:03] <mahangu> *finishing
[19:03] <stevecooley> welp, I had one item on the agenda as of about 1:30pm pst
[19:03] <photomatt> okay, we can wing this one, let's get started
[19:03] <photomatt> <meetup>
[19:03] <stevecooley> * helping out with XMLRPC testing / testcases (stevecooley)
[19:03] <photomatt> stevecooley, what was your agenda item?
[19:03] <photomatt> ah, thank you
[19:04] <stevecooley> I'd love to be able to contribute to the XMLRPC effort, I'd love to know how I can help out effectively
[19:04] <skippy> how many hackers use XMLRPC posting tools?
[19:04] <photomatt> that falls nicely into the general plan for today, which was to divide WP into logical sections and then send that list to wp-hackers
[19:04] <masquerade> skippy, -1
[19:04] <stevecooley> I am
[19:04] <stevecooley> Ecto
[19:04] <photomatt> so people can volunteer to "garden" different parts of WP
[19:04] * mahangu has been looking for a good CLI tool to XMLRPC with
[19:05] <stevecooley> I've used Marsedit and Ecto, and IMHO, Ecto wins
[19:05] <photomatt> the motivation is: WP is big, lot's of people want to help out, ryan and I need more sleep ;)
[19:05] <stevecooley> on Mac OS X
[19:05] <masquerade> photomatt, second on the sleep part, maybe there'll be less bugs if you sleep more ;-)
[19:05] * Joins: rboren
[19:05] <mahangu> stevecooley, yes, I've heard lots of good things about Marsedit.
[19:05] <photomatt> speak of the devil!
[19:05] <stevecooley> mahangu: I'd recommend you try out Ecto first
[19:05] <photomatt> masquerade, I plan to compensate by coding drunk
[19:06] <mumbles> hehehe
[19:06] <masquerade> photomatt, I find that actually works out occasionally
[19:06] <mahangu> photomatt, great idea, with more beers, all bugs are shallow
[19:06] * mumbles keeps out of the coding work couse he cant do it
[19:06] <masquerade> photomatt, you might not be able to understand it later, but a lot of the time, it works, and works damn well
[19:06] <ringmaster> Did someone say beer?
[19:06] <stevecooley> Anyway, folks, the deal is that when I post to WP using Ecto, I almost always get errors.. I think I might be smart enough to at least report what I'm seeing
[19:07] * Joins: OMEITOR
[19:07] <photomatt> ryan can confirm this, but I believe the official drinks of WP development are B&B and drumbuie
[19:07] <mahangu> isn't this because XMLRPC is flaky spec as it is? or is it really bad implementation on our part?
[19:07] <photomatt> stevecooley, that sounds excellent
[19:07] <photomatt> mahangu, I think it's because none of our core people use XML-RPC regularly
[19:07] <mahangu> (in reference to what stevecooley says)
[19:07] <stevecooley> how and where can I do this so that someone who's closer to the code can make my observations hopefully useful
[19:07] <photomatt> the spec is fine, yada yada
[19:07] <mahangu> photomatt, probably that too, yes
[19:08] <photomatt> stevecooley, well trac.wordpress.org is always good
[19:08] * mahangu is willing to try out / test a XMLRPC tool if there is a good free one for *nix
[19:08] <stevecooley> The weird part is that it tends to work ok, but I get these parsing errors on submission
[19:08] <ringmaster> Can someone recommend a few that we can target?
[19:08] <photomatt> but we're about to sectionize (new verb) WP and you could volunteer for the xml-rpc part and get an inside track
[19:08] <skippy> Ecto and w.Bloggar are the names I hear a lot.
[19:08] <rboren> Yes, ecto is the big one.
[19:08] <skippy> photomatt: volunteers need coordinators.
[19:08] <stevecooley> Ecto is pretty good
[19:09] <skippy> coordinators need to know how to coordinate.
[19:09] <photomatt> skippy, indeed
[19:09] <OMEITOR> and Flock and performancing for ff
[19:09] <masquerade> photomatt, I do believe the verb is sectionalize ;-)
[19:09] <skippy> people "volunteering" won't help. We need a plan.
[19:09] <photomatt> and coders need to know how to code, and testers how to test
[19:09] <mahangu> agreed
[19:09] <mahangu> :)
[19:10] <photomatt> anyway, let's get started on the division
[19:10] <skippy> what is expected of the cooridnators? How do they report back? Regular ol' trac tickets? That threatens to lose them.
[19:10] <photomatt> xml-rpc is a first no brainer
[19:10] <photomatt> skippy, let's talk about that next, after this
[19:10] <OMEITOR> what are we talking about? sorry im late ..
[19:10] <mahangu> photomatt, something i constantly feel is that coders with l33t skillz and enough free time (masquerade comes to mind) aren't used enough by WP :)
[19:10] <ringmaster> Is this just for sectioning users into testing groups?
[19:10] <photomatt> OMEITOR, ways to divide WP into sections that different people can take responsibility for
[19:10] <masquerade> mahangu, why me? lol
[19:11] <mahangu> so this is excellent (what we're doing now)
[19:11] <stevecooley> I'd love to help with the XMLRPC, but I don't think I'm close enough to the specs and the code to own it
[19:11] <OMEITOR> the development?
[19:11] <mahangu> masquerade, just one example :)
[19:11] <photomatt> for example, a xml-rpc lead can be in charge of making sure xml-rpc works. both development and testing
[19:11] <OMEITOR> or you mean like microsoft
[19:11] <OMEITOR> :)
[19:11] <photomatt> or at least verified testing
[19:11] <skeltoac> stevecooley: You don't have to be a coder to be a coordinator.
[19:11] <mahangu> OMEITOR, the DIRTY word :o
[19:11] <photomatt> right now we're brainstorming different sections
[19:11] <photomatt> let's just throw them out, decide which ones to keep later
[19:11] <photomatt> xml-rpc
[19:11] <photomatt> trackbacks/pingbacks
[19:11] <ringmaster> wp-admin
[19:11] <skeltoac> User system
[19:11] <stevecooley> I'm probably a good intelligent user that a higher level coder could work with to test things out
[19:11] <masquerade> WYSIWYG
[19:11] <OMEITOR> comments/trackbacks
[19:12] <photomatt> roles
[19:12] <photomatt> javascript/wysiwyg
[19:12] <OMEITOR> plugin api
[19:12] <masquerade> Rewrites
[19:12] <photomatt> themes
[19:12] <ringmaster> template tags
[19:12] <skippy> categories
[19:12] <stevecooley> skeltoac: good point,
[19:12] * mahangu watches the buzzwords fly
[19:12] <OMEITOR> importers
[19:12] <skeltoac> security
[19:12] <ringmaster> Of course, the stuff we don't list here is the stuff that REALLY needs attention.
[19:12] <masquerade> mahangu, tags, ajax, Web 2.0, anything with an uppercase X
[19:12] <photomatt> in-line documentation
[19:13] <masquerade> translations
[19:13] <photomatt> pages
[19:13] <ringmaster> feeds
[19:13] <photomatt> uploading and management, media
[19:13] <photomatt> link manager
[19:13] <photomatt> performance/speed
[19:13] <stevecooley> this conversation needs a wiki page
[19:13] <rboren> And multiply all of that by the number of hosting environments.
[19:13] <photomatt> stevecooley, it will have one
[19:13] <ringmaster> plugin API
[19:13] <stevecooley> :D
[19:13] <mahangu> photomatt, just remembered, I have a matter to table as well (after all this)
[19:13] <photomatt> yes, PHP environments
[19:14] <photomatt> mahangu, okay, ping me with it in a PM
[19:14] <photomatt> support
[19:14] <photomatt> codex
[19:14] <masquerade> MySQL versions
[19:14] <mahangu> photomatt, i think we need to have IIS testing, ive seen some complaints. i know, i mean who even hosts on IIS, but there are apparently a few
[19:14] <photomatt> okay
[19:14] <rboren> Win/Lin/mod/CGI/IIS/Apache/with safe mode/without safe mode/with fix path info/without fix path info/ with apache redirection/ without....
[19:15] <photomatt> design
[19:15] <photomatt> slash aesthetics
[19:15] <OMEITOR> coding standards?
[19:15] <stevecooley> codex is back
[19:15] <masquerade> shuttle (they've already got their own group)
[19:15] <ringmaster> stevecooley: You lie!
[19:15] <skippy> a high-level usability group?
[19:15] <mahangu> codex loads!
[19:16] <photomatt> no need for question marks, everything is valid at this stage, just brainstorming
[19:16] <photomatt> we'll decide how to organize it in a few minutes
[19:16] <OMEITOR> ok
[19:16] <skippy> back-end WP infrastructure ("Matt doesn't scale")
[19:16] <OMEITOR> feature requests
[19:16] <photomatt> WP-clonematt
[19:16] <OMEITOR> autoMATTic
[19:16] <rboren> The bus factor
[19:16] <mumbles> theme colecting
[19:17] <photomatt> wordpress.org
[19:17] <photomatt> bug gardening
[19:17] <stevecooley> themes.wordpress.net
[19:17] <photomatt> security
[19:17] <skippy> wp-plugins.org
[19:17] <photomatt> plugin directory
[19:17] <photomatt> plugin repository
[19:17] <photomatt> (one for users, one for developers)
[19:17] <OMEITOR> the same goes for themes..
[19:17] <photomatt> same for themes
[19:17] <OMEITOR> ^^^
[19:17] <photomatt> browser testing
[19:18] <mahangu> the fragmentation of various plugin repos?
[19:18] <skippy> did we miss anything? Oh, the kitchen sink.
[19:18] <mahangu> masquerade, what's up with elixir/alchemy
[19:18] <photomatt> mahangu, shhh, later!
[19:18] <masquerade> GOD! I KNEW someone would bring that up
[19:18] <photomatt> marketing
[19:18] <OMEITOR> themes in the theme lists should be properly tested
[19:18] <mahangu> sorry
[19:18] * mahangu stays on-topic
[19:18] <skippy> devblog posting.
[19:19] <stevecooley> dashboard ?
[19:19] <masquerade> forums fixing
[19:19] <OMEITOR> matt's secret blog on wordpress.org
[19:19] <photomatt> dashboard
[19:19] <OMEITOR> (yeah i found it :) )
[19:19] <skippy> okay, so we've enumerated lots of aspects of WordPress. Now what?
[19:19] <photomatt> any more ideas before we stop brainstorming?
[19:19] <photomatt> I think we've got pretty good coverage
[19:20] <OMEITOR> themes
[19:20] <stevecooley> codex page all these things, and people sign up for what they want to help on ?
[19:20] <photomatt> would someone like to collate the last 5 minutes of suggestions into a list? then we can go through and decide what's most important
[19:20] <OMEITOR> i dont mean the .net domain, but the wp.org page
[19:21] <mahangu> photomatt, im on it
[19:21] * mumbles stops listing
[19:21] <photomatt> mahangu, okay, give us a link to the wiki page when you're done
[19:21] * Quits: io_error ("Leaving"�)
[19:22] <photomatt> to address skippy's issue
[19:22] <photomatt> I think almost everything suggested is reasonable
[19:22] <photomatt> I'd be interested to see which areas people have interest helping in
[19:22] <photomatt> both here and from the wp-hackers audience
[19:22] <photomatt> and then I'll work my butt off to provide whatever those folks need to get started
[19:23] <photomatt> while we're waiting
[19:23] <photomatt> there is an "extra" server from the old wordpress.com setup
[19:23] <photomatt> very powerful, runs cpanel so it'd be easy to host lots of people on
[19:23] <photomatt> I've been thinking it'd be nice to make it available for whoever has WP projects but doesn't want to or can't host them
[19:24] <photomatt> free for WP projects
[19:24] <OMEITOR> you mean like theme development and plugins
[19:24] <OMEITOR> ?
[19:24] <photomatt> yes
[19:24] <mumbles> that would be nice
[19:24] <photomatt> that could avoid things liken when the elixir project lost some code a few weeks ago
[19:24] <photomatt> or even like when binarybonsai kep going down because the bandwidth from people downloading kubrick was too high
[19:24] <OMEITOR> but how can you be sure nobody uses it for the pr
[19:25] <photomatt> I've done this on an ad-hoc basis in the past
[19:25] <photomatt> I host themes.wordpress.net for example, though it's on an old slow box right now
[19:25] <OMEITOR> but the chances of something like kubrick happening again are really low
[19:25] <stevecooley> hey
[19:25] <stevecooley> can you move it to the fast new box? :)
[19:25] <photomatt> maybe that's what wordpress.net could become? like sourceforge for WP projects
[19:26] <photomatt> cpanel provides subdomains, email, mailing lists, almost everything people could need
[19:26] <photomatt> SVN is already available on the wp-plugins/themes sites
[19:26] <OMEITOR> isn't there something open source that does something like sourceforge?
[19:26] <photomatt> OMEITOR, yes, but the software is a bear
[19:26] <OMEITOR> :(
[19:26] <photomatt> I'd rather just provide the equivalent of what people would get if they paid $10/mo to bluehost or similar
[19:27] <photomatt> stevecooley, I can move it to the faster box :)
[19:27] <OMEITOR> still, there's no way you can be sure it'll be used for themes and plugins only
[19:27] <mumbles> it would have to be hevily poilced
[19:27] <stevecooley> photomatt: sweeeet! will that change any IP addresses or anything like that?
[19:27] <photomatt> it wouldn't be open signup
[19:27] <photomatt> people would apply and be accepted
[19:27] <OMEITOR> besides there are only a few themes and plugins that are that popular
[19:27] <OMEITOR> and those are mainly hosted on dedicated servers
[19:28] <OMEITOR> and the ads pay for the stuff usually..
[19:28] <OMEITOR> get my point?
[19:28] <photomatt> people can still do that, the goal is just to remove barriers
[19:28] <mumbles> hehe my theme idea hasent got off the ground yet. :p
[19:28] <photomatt> there are security implications to having people on wordpress.org
[19:29] <photomatt> wordpress.com is free but too limited for any development
[19:29] <OMEITOR> i agree
[19:29] <photomatt> so a middle ground :)
[19:29] <skippy> while we're waiting for mahangu to compile the list, can you address what options are available to enhancing the back-end support for the _servers_ and their software? So when things go wonky, or a trac spam run starts, reliable people can step in as they are available?
[19:29] <OMEITOR> you could just let the people host on wp.com
[19:29] <OMEITOR> and for the actual development use wp.net
[19:30] <photomatt> mahangu, how's it going?
[19:30] <mahangu> skippy, just waiting for the codex to load up for me :) two seconds
[19:30] <mahangu> photomatt, above
[19:30] <mahangu> it's being sporadic
[19:30] <skippy> pastebin it for the time being, mahangu
[19:30] <photomatt> skippy, could you clarify?
[19:30] <skippy> we can move it from pastebin to codex when codex becomes responsive
[19:30] <photomatt> trac and SVN is hosted by textdrive
[19:31] <photomatt> wp.org itself has been moved off textdrive
[19:31] <photomatt> the codex is on yahoo
[19:31] <skippy> photomatt: adding Codex administrators; modifying bbPress cofnigurations; stuff that currently requires your intervention
[19:31] <photomatt> actually codex admins can be added
[19:31] <skippy> what about resetting Codex passwords?
[19:32] <skippy> http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2474 <-- topic list
[19:32] <photomatt> skippy, I'm not sure what the prob is there. I'm guessing there's a bug with sending mail?
[19:32] <mahangu> oh sorry, forgot wpbot isn;'t in here
[19:32] <mumbles> can we have a backup codex ?
[19:32] <skippy> photomatt: sending mail seems not to work, yes. But a SQL query can reset a user's passwords. Are you the only one who can reset passwords?
[19:33] <mumbles> for when codex goes down - if it ever happerns again
[19:33] <skippy> whatever happened to the single sign-on plugin?
[19:33] <mumbles> or an link to download the codex
[19:33] <photomatt> skippy, I don't know
[19:33] <skippy> sorry, I'm switching gears. lets focus on Codex passwords
[19:33] <mahangu> photomatt, skippy : have i missed anything in that?
[19:33] <skippy> you mentioned that we can't upgrade? Who has tried what steps?
[19:34] <photomatt> I have tried upgrading, and brion vibber from wikipedia/mediawiki has walked through the code with me
[19:34] <photomatt> I spent a few days on it, no dice
[19:35] <mahangu> perhaps we need to think another wiki engine?
[19:35] <photomatt> well, "if it ain't broke"
[19:35] <photomatt> it's a tiny bit broke right now, I don't want to really break it
[19:35] <OMEITOR> the problem is the db right?
[19:36] <photomatt> I'm happy to provide a DB dump to skippy if he wants to take a whack at it
[19:36] <skippy> sure. I'll look at it.
[19:36] <OMEITOR> what's the size
[19:36] <photomatt> a few hundred mb
[19:36] <mahangu> :)
[19:36] <photomatt> we also have the wiki-tech mailing list for this sort of thing
[19:36] <skippy> make a dump available and I'll wget it.
[19:36] <photomatt> skippy, okay. will do
[19:37] <skippy> so back to the testing groups.
[19:37] <photomatt> so is http://pastebin.bafserv.com/2474 the final list?
[19:37] <skippy> what is the expectation of how volunteers can contribute?
[19:38] <photomatt> skippy, suggestions?
[19:38] <mahangu> photomatt, yes
[19:38] <skippy> as I said, we need coordination of sort; otherwise we just have groups of data coming in, instead of ungrouped data coming.
[19:39] * mahangu changes topic to 'http://codex.wordpress.org/IRC_Meetups